Wednesday Poll: "Loving" and Discrimination in Our "Enlightened" Times

It's been all over the news of course, but Mildred Loving died last week.  In case you're unfamiliar with the Supreme Court case that bears her name:

"Mildred Jeter and Richard Loving grew up as friends and neighbors in Caroline County, Va. In June 1958, Richard got 18-year-old Mildred pregnant, and the young lovers decided to get married. Ordinarily, that would have been the respectable thing to do. But Mildred was black, Richard was white, and the Commonwealth of Virginia and 15 other states still had laws on the books prohibiting miscegenation. Mildred and Richard had to travel to Washington, D.C., to get married in a civil ceremony. Then they returned home to Central Point, Va.

"A few weeks later, the local sheriff literally burst into the newlyweds' bedroom and arrested them for violating Virginia's Racial Integrity Act. ('If any white person intermarry with a colored person, or any colored person intermarry with a white person, he shall be guilty of a felony.') The Lovings were convicted by a judge who wrote, 'Almighty God … did not intend for the races to mix' but agreed to suspend their one-year jail sentence provided they left Virginia and didn't return for 25 years.

"The couple moved to Washington, D.C., and Mildred, hoping to end this exile, pleaded her case in a letter to Attorney General Robert Kennedy. Kennedy referred her to the American Civil Liberties Union, which agreed to represent the Lovings. In 1967, Loving v. Virginia reached the Supreme Court. Citing the 14th Amendment, the court overturned the Lovings' conviction and ruled that all anti-miscegenation laws would henceforth be null and void.... 'Under our Constitution,' wrote Chief Justice Earl Warren, 'the freedom to marry or not marry a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed upon by the state.'"  (Via Slate; picture via Terrierman.)

In the wake of Mildred Loving's death, some of articles I've read about the case (with the exception of the Terrierman, linked above) are expressing a sense of relief that this kind of discrimination doesn't still happen today in our modern, enlightened society.

To which my response is, "Really, ya think?"  I'll grant that it may not be as acceptable to express such sentiments publicly, but I'd submit the ugly signs we who live near Topeka see frequently, not to mention the lovely trial transcripts we who work as attorneys come across every now and again, are pretty good proof that discrimination is alive and well in the new millennium.

So, for this week's poll:

What was your first experience with discrimination, either against yourself or others?  Is it something you see often?  Do you feel that--especially when dealing with people who grew up at a time when such discrimination was socially acceptable--it's better to confront it or to ignore it?

Comment and discuss.

Comments

[Meryl]

Here's an interesting bit that I just came across after I posted this:

http://www.blogher.com/talking-race-kelly-wickham-mocha-momma

[Sarah]

I remember in 9th grade, my social science teacher talked to us in class about racism, civil rights, etc. He told us that when he was just a young boy, about 6, he saw a black person for the first time. As I recall it, he saw a black boy and mother at a mall. They were going up the escalator while he was going down. He described how he couldn't stop staring because he'd never actually seen one of "them" before. He was confused because the way his grandparents talked about "them," he didn't expect them to look just like him. But this little boy and mother looked like regular people. He expected them to have horns or something. After seeing them, he didn't understand why his family disliked these people so much.

I think most people in the class thought he was talking about really ancient times (we were 14 after all, so a teacher must be WAY older than us), but I remember doing the math. He was only 28, which meant he was 6 only 8 years before we were born. So that was hardly ancient history he was telling us about. It seemed shocking to me that just 8 years before I was born, people still thought blacks and whites should stay separate.

That's some pretty obvious discrimination. I think discrimination sometimes can be a lot harder to pinpoint. But, yea, I think there's still a lot of discrimination: race, gender, sexual orientation. I think the whole ugly illegal immigration debate is a swirling mass of xenophobia.

I'm not a fan of ignoring discrimination. If someone makes a comment in my presence, I'm not going to let it slide. (Within reason, of course. There are times where a confrontation would be inappropriate.) I can respect my elders while still challenging their discriminatory views. But I can't really respect myself if I let negative comments go unchecked.

[Fergus' Mom]

I think my first experience was in 6th grade (so something like 1980). We had moved from Maryland to North Carolina the year before and being from the DC area I was pretty much colorblind when it came to race. You treat me nice, I treat you nice, we are cool ruled (and hopefully still does). I was friends with a girl in my grade and one day she just started giving me the cold shoulder. I couldn't figure it out so I asked her what had happened, had I done something to offend. She furtively looked around the room to see who was looking at us before saying that we couldn't be friends anymore. I asked why and was told, 'because'. Obviously next question was, 'because, why?'. Answer? I was white. And white girls and black girls cannot be friends. Made absolutely NO SENSE at all to me, but became clearer the longer I lived in that area of NC. Once in High School and realizing that my school's Vice Principal was/had been a Grand Dragon for the KKK it made even more sense. But it wasn't something I put up with. Thankfully I managed to turn a couple people's thinking around that color shouldn't play a role in selecting friends, but it was a slow process.

Flash forward to a couple months ago when I was probably one of those foolish enough to marvel at how far we've come when I heard a neighbor's 13 daughter tell us she and her girlfriend (both biracial) had been called the 'N' word in the school cafeteria. Groan. Quite proud of the way the young ladies responded, as I'm not sure I could have been so composed in my response. 'You must be mistaken, the only ignorant person I see in this room is you'.

[Meryl]

Although I'm sure there are other incidents that I'm just blocking out, the thing that really sticks in my mind happened in high school. (Circa 1998 for frame of reference.) That was the first year my high school participated in an exchange program with a high school in Russia, and I got in a pretty heated argument with someone who was trying to convince my baby brother that all people from Russia were "communists" (said in a very derisive way) and "couldn't be trusted."

I think that's actually a pretty good example of my attitude toward such comments. If it had just been myself in the room, I don't know that I would have said anything (or nearly as much, anyway) because there would have been no danger of those comments influencing me and I knew there was no way anything I could say would change the speaker's mind. But since my little brother was there (he would've been about 10 at the time) I couldn't just let it go.

For much the same reason, at this point in life I tend to just kind of shoot the raised-eyebrows, "Are you serious?" dirty look when elders make an inappropriate comment. But I think I might be a little more vocal in my disapproval if, for example, I had a kiddo who was in the room.

Way to go for your neighbor though Pam--I don't think that quickly on my feet now, let alone when I was 13!

[StacyH]

Racism is not in the same form it was in 20 years ago. Many if not most, people in our age group do not tolerate it, and as long as we continue to pass those principles on (principles I received from my parents mind you) we can have an impact on racism, and work to ending it.

I have to:
As a resident of Texas who faces the consequences of illegal immigration every day in our hospitals and in our schools, I would say it's less about racism, and more about money.

I have a story about my first encounter with racism, but I'm not going to share it. I was 8 years old in Alabama and it was against me. My only point in mentioning it at all - is racism goes both ways.

[Meryl]

Definitely true as to it going both ways Stacy. But it's kind of funny to me how being of the race that generally does more giving than receiving as far as racist comments/history/etc. goes changes your perspective of it a little bit.

I often tell the story of how we were discriminated against when Sweet Husband and I were thinking of moving to New Orleans and looking for an apartment. We called to look at a place that was listed in the paper, and were told, "It's in a black neighborhood." Then the lady hung up.

While I was a little shocked maybe, it really didn't sting. After all, it wasn't as if we didn't have other options, and it makes for a kind of colorful story to tell of my travels "down South." It was kind of a novelty for me.

But if it happened everyday, or even just a couple times in a year...I think the novelty would wear off pretty quickly.

[Sarah]

Stacy, I didn't mean to suggest that illegal immigration isn't a real public policy concern at all. I was more talking about the actual language often used in the public debate. It has been very ugly in tone. I think the topic of illegal immigration has become such a hot button topic that it has become the new acceptable place to express dislike, even hatred, for people simply based on race, ethnicity, etc. As an example, the comment board on the ljworld allowed a post to stay on, even after I requested its removal, that referred to immigrants as "wetbacks." I can't imagine that they wouldn't remove a post that referred to all blacks as "n"s. But slurs towards "immigrants" aren't frowned upon.

I didn't express it this clearly in my first post, but that's really what I was getting at. That generally people are letting discriminatory language and feelings seep into the discussion. And not enough of us are calling people on it. The discussion would be a lot more productive if we could get away from sweeping comments about "those damn Mexicans."

[kirsty]

I stumbled upon your blog and am fascinated by this post - I knew nothing of this case ... but then I am Scottish and moved to the US 9 years ago. Being from the North East of Scotland meant that it wasn't really until I went to University in Edinburgh that I met anyone of a different race. The only person who wasn't white in my little town were the two children who were of Chinese parentage - their parents ran the Chinese Takeaway.

When I came to the US I was astonished at the racism here. I lived in Cincinnati in 2000 during the race riots there. That town simmered with racial tension. I had the experience of being called a "cr***er whore" when crossing the street!

I also have a friend of mine who comes from a large southern city. She is white and likes to think of herself as politically progressive however there have been times that I have heard racist comments come out of her mouth. She commented that the metro rail being expanded to her part of town would bring more crime because it would bring more black people - this prompted me to try to point out to her that what she was saying was that just because of a person's skin she thinks they will commit crime rather than looking at whether they come from poverty and a poor school system which are the ingredients for breeding crime. This friend does not consider herself racist and has friends of different races but she allows a degree of racism in her thinking which she views as socially acceptable.

One of our black friends has commented that underhanded racism drives him crazy. He normally gets the comment "I would never know you were black if I wasn't looking at you". People who normally say that to him think they are giving him some kind of compliment!!

I agree the immigrant issue is a form of racism. It is all a fear of the "other" of difference and a lack of empathy. I hope with everything I have that Obama wins the Election - I think having him in office would go a long way to addressing the underlying racism that still pervades this country.

[Anita]

I am living in a place that is greatly influenced by the Mexican culture. This culture is foreign to me. I don't particularly like its color choices or design. The clothes in the stores here predominately are purchased with this culture in mind. Because I do not want to incorporate this culture into my own style, am I a racist?
I think saying the Illegal immigration issue is a form of racism cuts off all debate. It calls the person who is concerned about the number of people who come here to use our services without the benefit of citizenship and/or permission from our citizenry--racist.
No one wants to be considered a racist.
If the debate stops then will there be investigation into how Illegal immigration effects our schools, neighborhoods, medical care, effects the whole of our country and its culture. I think that is the reason the racism charge is being cast so debate will end.
On a second point, All Humans have a "fear of the "other", not just the humans in this country. Most times (I realize there are exceptions) the "other" in this country feel irritated, uncomfortable, mad because of what someone says. If it is more than that the laws in this country are suppose to work to keep that from happening, sometimes they step in if it is what someone says that is the issue.
I realize that this country is not perfect and there are people who reside here that need a swift kick in the backside. But I feel we deal with racism/discrimination more openly then most other countries. We acknowledge it as who we are and in most cases try very hard to avoid it. I am not sure other countries do the same. I for one am extremely blessed that as a women I live in this country and not many other countries in the world.

[Sarah]

I think this is precisely why the immigration discussion in our country has stalled: because some of us don't feel the discussion can go forward until we expose the ugly, xenophobic undertones while others freeze up and get defenseive when terms like xenophobic and racist are brought up. We are at an impasse because I refuse to continue to debate the issue with people who use the "w" word or speak contemptuously about "those damned Mexicans." I do want to deal with the issue. I just want to make sure we're dealing with it in a fair way, rather than in a way that comes from our baser instincts of fear and hatred. We agree that all humans have that instinctual fear of others, so let's acknowledge that and strive to keep that fear out of our public policy decisions.

I am not calling all those who are concerned about illegal immigration racists. But the discussion has been very ugly at times and has involved a lot of discriminatory, derogatory language. It simply isn't fair to place the blame for a stall in the debate on the issue on those of us who are bothered by that ugly undertone.

No, it is not racist not to share tastes with Mexican color and design. But I would submit that it is racist to say that those styles should not be sold in "American" stores.

[Anita]

It is racist to say that those styles should not be sold in "American" stores. I didn't say that nor did I imply that. The racism charge stops discussion. Just because it is leveled does not mean it is accurate. It is easy to throw out negative terms. I think most thoughtful people try to keep their debates free of name calling and judgements. The other debates are just noise. By giving those debates credence it diminishes the stature of meaningful discourse.

[StacyH]

Parkland Medical Hospital (one of the largest hospitals in Dallas) - in 2006 70% of the babies delivered were to illegal immigrants. It cost the tax payers $31.3M (total bill was over $70M) and the women benefiting from those services NOTHING.

Harris County (Houston) had $97M in unpaid costs (transfered to the taxpayer) in 2005. I'm sure in 06 and 07 the story was similar.

7% of all Texans are estimated to be here illegally. The statistics on this are outrageous.

In Texas, they estimate there are 1.4M illegals living mostly in Dallas and Houston.

9M people pay taxes every year with a bogus SSN.

They are having more children than the rest of us, so our schools remain overcrowded.

I could go all day ... there's more at my blog. I resent the implication that my mother is a racist, by the way.

[Sarah]

I never said, nor did I mean to imply, that Anita was a racist. I was trying to demonstrate where I draw the line. This is a discussion on discrimination, after all, so I find it useful to define the terms.

When I mentioned people using racist terms, like the "w" word, I thought I was clear that I was referring back again to the ljworld discussion board. If that was not clear, I apologize. Nor was I trying to indicate that I will not engage in useful debate with people who do not resort to discriminatory language in the discussion, which again, to be clear, neither Anita nor Stacy have done. What I said was expounding on Anita's original post that using the word "racist" cuts off debate. I was pointing out that the impasse goes both ways because it is difficult for me to discuss illegal immigration policy in a meaningful way if I cannot address my concerns that some people (and again, let me be clear, not Anita and Stacy as I don't know you and you've not used the discriminatory language I'm objecting to) are giving into xenophobia. Policy decisions should not be made on the basis of fear of others, dislike, or hate.

[StacyH]

Wednesday polls are so controversial!

I understand your position Sarah, and I believe you (and me!) are trying to be thoughtful regarding the immigration debate. I'm sorry if it appeared I ganged up on you, I just had a kind of knee jerk reaction.

It's a touchy subject (immigration) for some of us, and racism is just so prevelant right now, in part because of media and some of the tone of the election.

As to the original question - I think some of our old laws are horribly sad and depressing. I hope that Mildred Loving found happiness and peace and enjoyed her life fully. As I hope everyone does. God bless us, everyone! :)

[Meryl]

Woah there--I don't think anyone was calling anyone racist. Actually I think Sarah and Anita are saying similar things in different ways.

I agree with you Anita that it's not fair for people to pull the "racist" card everytime someone brings up the issue of immigration. On the other hand, I think Sarah is right that it *is* racist to discuss immigration using derogatory terms, and it's becoming more and more socially acceptable to do so. (Not that anyone here is doing that.)

Despite the fact that I've been a little on tenterhooks watching this discussion all day (because I know all three ladies involved, I know they're all smart and fabulous *and* coming from completely different places) I love the fact that there is a vibrant little debate going on here. I think if we can all keep in mind that a) things sometimes don't come through just as we'd want them to in writing, and b) no one is intentionally bashing anyone else personally--it could be a lot of fun to really talk about the issues. This is obviously a "hot" topic and one that effects us all.

For example I'm curious, Stacy you listed some statistics regarding what immigrants cost, but what is the gain we get from them? E.g. I have a relative who admittedly hires illegal immigrants because he can't find "white guys" to do the work. Also, how much would our food prices go up if the people picking it had to be paid "real wages"?

[StacyH]

By paying them substandard salaries, we create a lower class that can not sustain itself and requires welfare to exist. He probably could find someone else to do the work, if he paid more. When people say they do the work American's won't do, what they mean is, they do the work American's won't do for so little.

I do not want to create a working class group of people that thinks its sole benefit to the nation is lawnwork and housecleaning. Though both are respectable, they should be paid DECENT wages to do either. Same for the farm work they do in New Mexico and Arizona. And the rising cost of food shouldn't be an issue. Because if it were children that were being taken advantage of in this way, no one would bat an eye even if the businesses abusing them said they would have to increase costs if they hired "real" workers.

And tax statistics indicate that while they do pay taxes, it's less than half of what they need in the form of welfare programs. And their expense isn't all that different from an average American in the same situation, but their earning potential is so much lower because 2/3rds of them don't have high school educations.

The other issue is they have much larger families. Americans are having fewer and fewer children while Hispanics are still trending toward large families. And they make less, so more kids, less money, more medical costs, more education costs, more tax costs all the way around.

Really the highest cost to the tax payer is medical, food stamps, and more children in the schools whos parents don't pay property taxes (most rent).

[Meryl]

From the discussions we've had on the subject I've infered that the relative referenced above is paying what we would consider "fair" wages, but rather has trouble finding American citizens who want to do that type of work and are dependable. (Although the next time it comes up I do intend to ask specifically about wages, because now I'm curious.) I got the idea that it was more that someone who was not on if-y immigration status could make the same amount of money working somewhere with air conditioning, rather than outside in the summer doing hard manual labor.

But in a more general sense....

Analyzing it all from a monetary cost/benefit analysis I can't get over the idea that it's got to be close to a wash. Yes, they use our hospitals, schools, etc. But they also keep prices lower via cheap labor, and (as you noted Stacy) many actually pay taxes but then don't to file for a refund in April. Having taken a few statistics classes, I have a lot of trouble believing them without very careful study of the methodology used. It's a poor excuse I know, but I seldom make that effort so--for right or wrong--it's more the "common sense" arguements that convince me. Based on those, as I said, I think the purely monetary cost/benefit is kind of a wash, and therefore doesn't really concern me.

What *does* concern me--and what will ultimately bring me around in any argument for greater controls on imigration--is the potential for abuse of workers in our current setup. I'm not necessarily talking about low pay (because I think market forces are at work there, and I'm pretty much ok with that), but more like...issues with employers being upfront with their employees--e.g. the guy that's told he's going to get paid $2 an hour and then at the end of the week only gets paid $2 a day and has no recourse; the person who gets hurt because of unsafe equipment and has no form of work comp.

If we have to limit immigrant workers to get the types of controls that will fix those problems, then I'm all ears.

[StacyH]

If your common sense version is true, than they are getting substandard pay because they "are cheap labor". It's not as if there are not documented Americans that apply for these same jobs, but a documented worker requires health care, dental, eye, 401K, etc. None of which an employer has to pay an illegal. And they get no guff from illegals, as you mention. They have no recourse if one week they get $50 and the next they get $25. They can't argue at all.

Take this quote for instance regarding a farm in Charlotte:
"Former Greenville supervisors said the plant prefers undocumented workers because they are less likely to question working conditions for fear of losing their jobs or being deported."

I do believe that there are employers out there (your relative, for one) who pay decent wages to good people who just want to work hard and provide for their families. But the numbers behind hospital cost, education cost, etc. can not be ignored. And perhaps the workers are getting a good wage - but they aren't getting health care, 401K, workers comp, or any other right that goes along with working in this country.

Let me ask you this ... do you think they should be granted amnesty and made citizens?

[Anita]

I am not certain, because I don't know any illegal immigrants, but think many want to go back to their own country. They want to make money here and then go back to live on what they have made. If they don't want to go back then they would want to bring their family here. That was what occurred when amnesty was given before.
I don't think this is an easy issue to deal with. I do see why our government is trying to help the Mexican government to beef up their economy. Their country has the natural resources to be a great prosperous country, if they could use what they have for their people, they wouldn't need to come here.